How to tell better stories
Q&A with storytelling and podcast consultant Karen Given
How lucky are we to be in a profession that revolves around great stories?
Whether you’re working on investigative journalism, blog posts, website content, or radio reporting, most writing is more enjoyable to create, more effective in communicating a point, and more likely to keep readers reading if there is a strong narrative guiding us through. Karen Given is an expert in finding and producing those stories for radio and also for her newsletter, Narrative Beat.
I’ve never dabbled in audio storytelling myself, but I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts and thinking about how fun it must be to layer all those voices and scene-building sound bites, as opposed to simply describing them with words. I often find myself thinking about how the details captured through sound might translate to the page. Writers can learn a lot from radio and podcasts, and it’s so inspiring to see how Karen pulls from all types of journalism in discussing and teaching the craft of storytelling.
Karen has worked in radio since she was 16 years old, holding a variety of positions from Technical Director to Executive Producer to host, with both news and feature programs. Now she offers workshops, coaching and training for anyone looking to improve their storytelling techniques.
She is a wealth of wisdom on interviewing sources and finding and producing great stories. Which is what we’re all trying to do more of. So I’m thrilled to be asking her some questions about how we can all tell better stories.
Writers, meet Karen!
(And if you’re new to One More Question, hello! This is a newsletter for freelance writers who are determined to make it work. If you’d like more advice and inspiration on that, along with a bunch of weekly writing opportunities—pitch calls, funding, classes, etc.—click that button right there. 👇)
“To make great stories, you have to follow your true curiosity. Your desire to understand someone else’s lived experience. You have to embrace an open mindedness that allows you to see the world through someone else’s eyes.”
— Karen Given
Britany: First, can you tell us how you became an expert in storytelling? What has the path to good stories looked like for you?
Karen: I didn’t always consider myself to be a “storyteller.” For a long time, I thought of myself as a very good radio reporter. After working for more than two decades in public radio, putting together an entertaining audio feature had become easy.
I don’t feel like I became a “storyteller” until the NPR program I produced changed formats. We were a sports show – so think of it as transitioning from “All Sports Considered” to “This American Sports.” That’s when I realized that I needed to reassess the way I was approaching my stories. And recalibrate every aspect of the audio reporting process, from research to sound design.
I had always listened to narrative podcasts. Like, literally.
I remember calling Ira Glass to arrange for the delivery of custom promos during This American Life’s first season of national distribution. And even before that, I remember turning off the lights, putting on a pair of headphones and listening in the dark to Tony Kahn’s docudrama, Blacklisted. (Seriously, 25 years later, that thing is still worth a listen.)
But when I started asking friends how they actually made these kinds of stories, the answers I got weren’t very helpful.
A lot of brilliant storytellers work intuitively. They iterate and iterate and iterate until they find something that feels right.
But I didn’t have time for that. I needed to find a method that my brain could wrap around. And here’s the cool thing. When I started pulling apart stories to see what made them tick – that’s when my storytelling skills really improved.
Can anyone learn to tell good stories? Can anyone learn to tell GREAT stories?
I’ve never really thought about that! I’m gonna say that anyone can learn to tell good stories. The skills and techniques might come more naturally to some people than they do to others, but it's not magic.
When you think of people who have made GREAT stories, you might think they've just been lucky. Stumble upon an amazing character who's lived through a surprising series of events, and you can make something memorable. And that can work. Once. Maybe even twice.
But when you consider the people who consistently make great stories, that’s not luck.
It’s empathy.
To make great stories, you have to follow your true curiosity. Your desire to understand someone else’s lived experience. You have to embrace an open mindedness that allows you to see the world through someone else’s eyes.
Without that, your stories will never be GREAT. They’ll only be good.
Most subscribers to OMQ are writers, rather than podcasters or radio hosts. And I know I for one get a little envious of the richness that's possible with broadcast journalism: the overlapping sound bites, the music, the variety of voices. Of course, rich storytelling is possible through writing, too. So I wonder, what are some tactics in bringing stories to life through radio that can also be applied to writing?
So, I’m gonna level with you. You can pile all of those rich audio techniques into a single story, and still be left with a pile of crap.
Sure, overlapping voices, music, sound effects – they’re all fun. But they don’t actually make your story more impactful.
But if I were to point to one thing that all journalists – print or audio – should pay more attention to, it would be the interview.
In audio, we need to get our subjects to describe their lived experiences in their own words. Even if they’ve told their story a thousand times before, we still need to get them to tell it to us one more time.
And most of us don’t have the luxury of talking to our subjects for more than an hour or two. So we have to get strategic about the questions we're asking. We dive deep into really tiny moments. Turning points. Scenes. Conversations. We ask our subjects to describe not only what they were doing/seeing, but also, “What was the weather like?” “What were you wearing?” “What did that emotion feel like in your body?”
By the way…“What did you make of that?” is the most useful interview question ever invented. Try it. It will change your world.
What inspired you to start writing a newsletter?
I’d like to say that it came from a genuine desire to train the next generation of audio storytellers. And that’s totally true!
But I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that there was something in it for me. My newsletter is my marketing plan. It’s the mechanism I use to find new clients. It’s how I signal to former clients that I’m still available.
Not to mention, I’m sometimes asked to commission reporters to work on podcasts I’m producing. Having a group of well-trained freelancers really makes that easy!
What have you learned about narrative since starting your newsletter and writing about narrative?
Oh…so many things. As journalists, I think there’s a big push to get our stories out in the world. But by the time they’ve dropped, we’ve usually moved on to the next big story.
Writing my newsletter has required me to go back and listen. What worked? What didn’t work? What did I learn? What should I do differently next time?
All of this self-reflection has made me a better storyteller. It has made me more deliberate. When I’m putting a story together, I’m not just guessing or choosing on instinct. Instead, it's like a game of chess. I’m looking 10 moves ahead, thinking about how this decision will affect all of the other decisions yet to come. It’s intentional. And it keeps me from getting mired in the self doubt that might otherwise plague me.
You recently wrote about the importance of getting organized before you start a story. What is your personal approach to structure/organizing a narrative?
Oh, I am a total freak for structure and organization. No one would believe that if they saw the state of my t-shirt drawer, but it’s totally true!
Writing is the very, very last thing I think about when making a story. Structure and organization are the things I think about from the very beginning to the very end.
When I’m researching a topic, I find myself thinking, “This is a great turning point. I should try to gather a lot of details about this moment.”
When I’m interviewing a subject, the thought pops into my mind, “This might be my ending. Follow up with some juicy emotion questions.”
I’m constantly thinking about how the puzzle pieces fit together. And so, when it comes time to write, I often feel like I’ve already done the hard parts. I’ve structured my story. I’ve assembled my sound bites. All I have to do is create transitions from A, to B, to C.
Writing is incredibly simple and easy, because of the amount of structure and organization I’ve done ahead of time.
Developing your voice is important for both broadcast journalists and writers. What did it take for you to discover and feel confident in your own?
Am I allowed to swear? Because the real answer here is…I couldn’t find my voice until I learned to say f-you to the assholes.
As journalists – and especially as female journalists – we get so much hate. Everyone seems to have opinions on what we’re doing…and how they could do our jobs better.
As long as I was listening to them, I couldn’t find my voice. I was too busy trying not to offend anyone.
Finally, I realized there were only three people I needed to please. Myself. My mother. And my boss.
Everyone else can go pound sand.
Often, when trying to develop a narrative for an article or podcast, it can feel like we're at the mercy of our sources and what they're willing to give us. This is even more challenging when we aren't able to report on something in person and have to rely on phone or email interviews. How do you encourage sources to go deeper and give you the details that make a good story?
Okay, well, first of all, one of the worst interviews I ever did won a national Edward R. Murrow award.
The subject of the story was clearly distracted during the interview. Her answers were short and incomplete. I left the interview wondering if I even had a story.
So…my first piece of advice is: don't give up on a good story because of a bad interview. There's almost always another way to make it work.
But also…I can’t actually remember the last time I did an interview in person. It was long before COVID. As a busy writer/reporter/editor/executive producer/host, I simply didn’t have time to leave the studio.
And you can totally do a brilliant interview without being in the same room as your subject. Fun fact: I have it on good authority that Fresh Air host Terry Gross always asks for her interview subject to be put in a different studio, even when they're in the same building.
The truth is, when a person is sitting in front of me, I get all tripped up over things like eye contact. (Am I making too much? Not enough? Where do I focus my eyes?!?) And I feel awkward taking notes or looking down at my questions to make sure I haven’t missed anything.
I actually find it easier to connect with a person voice-to-voice.
The success of an interview relies on two things. 1. An honest curiosity. 2. A well-framed question.
I can’t help you with the first. You gotta find that on your own.
But as for the second…there are a lot of interview prompts we use to get the details we need. Things like…
“Tell me the story of the day X happened.”
“How and when did you decide to do Y?”
“Set the scene for me. Where were you when you first learned that you’d finally get to do Z?”
All of these questions ask our subjects to speak in story. But they’re also quite specific. Avoid wide-open questions like, “What was your childhood like?” Or, “What’s it like to work in X profession?”
Trust me. Nobody’s got time for that.
What are you most excited to be working on right now or in the near future?
A lot of my newsletter subscribers are early-to-mid career audio makers. Many of them are independent, or they’re working in shops where they’re the only person doing this kind of work. So I want to create a space for them. A place where they can get support from me…and from each other. Monthly online meetups. A slack channel. I’m still working out the details, but I’m hoping to launch in March.
What's one piece of advice you can offer a writer who is interested in starting a podcast?
Don’t do it because you want to get rich. (You probably won’t.)
Don’t do it because you think it’s easy. (It’s definitely not.)
Do it because you have something to say…and because you believe there is a community out there who wants to hear you say it.
Podcasting is not about reaching the largest possible number of people. It’s about connecting with a relatively small – but incredibly dedicated – audience. So be clear about who your community is, and what value you can bring to it.
That’s all for today, friend! If you’re a paid subscriber, I’ll be back in your inbox with the usual Good Stuff for Writers tomorrow.
Stay inspired,
Britany